Autism Chat: Professor Allan Snyder May 6, 2001

Host Stella_9msn says: ninemsn in association with Sunday presents a live interview with Professor Allan Snyder. Professor Snyder is talking about autism. Welcome, Professor Snyder. It's an honor having you here.

Host Allan_Snyder says: I'm delighted to be on the Sunday show, it's a real pleasure. And I'm looking forward to stimulating interchange on this exotic topic, so lets go. This will be fun.

Host Stella_9msn says: Russell says: Professor, have you already completed the brain stimulation experiments, and if so what were the results?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I didn't complete them, but a brilliant team in Flinders has and although their results are under embargo until they're published, I can say, as the BBC film said, that they confirm our hypothesis that you can switch off the conceptual part of the brain and access savant-like skills in normal people. Of course, this is truly amazing when think about it. You can turn on and off non-conscious skills in perfectly normal people ... and we are working on other ways to circumvent the conceptual part of the mind by biological feedback – techniques which probably anyone could do in their home. More on that later... Watch this space!

Host Stella_9msn says: Dormien says: What hypothesis do you offer as to the differing skills of savants (eg maths, music, etc)? Why [do] they possess one and not others? To what extent do you think you will be able to control this with a magnetic pulse?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Okay, firstly some savants possess all three, so that's very important, and across all cultures savants possess the same sort of skills. So I think it's very important to remember that these skills pop up in people not just with autism, but with anything that causes brain damage to a particular area on the brain – particularly the left frontal lobe. I don't know if we can selectively choose the skill. This I can't answer, but I think it's a very good question. I guess, theoretically speaking, if you turn off the conceptual parts of the brain, you should in theory have all skills. There's a problem here because in reality not just one part of the brain is damaged, so we don't have clear evidence from brain-damaged people but we might have from our artificial ways of shutting off the brain.

Host Stella_9msn says: Kol says: Professor, do you think there is any connection between forceps delivery in labour and parietal damage as seen in the savant cases?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I'm not an expert in this area but there definitely have been reports suggesting that this could well be the case. And why not? If a baseball injury can produce savantism, then why not a harsh forceps delivery?

Host Stella_9msn says: Nikki says: Allan, brilliant work you are doing and the show was inspirational. I am curious as to those people, such as Leonardo da Vinci, who demonstrate obvious genius in areas such as the arts and yet also seem to demonstrate no disability in other areas of their brain and other social skills, etc. Are they able to tap into that area of the brain?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Great question – which clearly has to be thought about – but I don't think so. Prodigies don't usually amount to anything not quite as bad as savants. Leonardo da Vinci learned to draw, and the way he did that is the way we teach drawing today. That is to remove the meaning of an object, like a face, by turning it upside down. Of course, manic depression and other less severe brain disorders might give an ephemeral input into the non-conscious, but the fact that you ask this question probably means you have a deeper appreciation than I do.

Host Stella_9msn says: Anne says: Dr Snyder, my son has autistic spectrum disorder and I feel that when younger he had savant capabilities, but we have stifled them trying to make him conform to the real world. Do you think this possible?

Host Allan_Snyder says: We really don't want to have savant capabilities if they sacrifice

the holistic conceptual ways of life, do we? If my son had savant-like abilities, and I had the opportunity to gain conceptual understanding by suppressing these savant skills, I would happily do so. But I have to admit that severely autistic people I know who were once savants seemed slightly happier when they were savants than being just impaired. But you'd have to go on a case-by-case basis, I guess.

Host Stella_9msn says: Kat says: Has Professor Snyder considered looking at language and its effect of screening information?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I haven't, but language to me represents the epitome of conceptual mental machinery. Usually, maybe almost always, early savant display is accompanied by problems with verbal conceptualisation – at least as we understand it.

Host Stella_9msn says: Lesley says: Professor Snyder, how do we get more information about this study, as my background is in education and I want to find out the results?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Me too! I'm afraid we'll all have to keep our eyes on my website: www.centreforthemind.com.

Host Stella_9msn says: mirko says: If abnormal brain function explains the genius ability of these people, what explains genius ability in those with normal brain function?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I think genius, as you and I would probably define, represents changing how other people see this world, putting something that is truly uniquely [about] us into the story to weave a new interpretation. My studies of savants, and all those that I've ever read, seem to indicate savants are a mimicking, purely copying things that exist in all of our brains ... but we cannot access them, nor would you expect us to be evolved to do so. So savant genius is a misnomer, it should be savant extraordinary skill, like Dustin Hoffman in Rainman. But in no way does that diminish the delight and the pleasure of interacting with savants and appreciating them as exceptional human beings with warmth and surprising compassion.

Host Stella_9msn says: dougD says: Why does autism strike males so much more thanfemales? Almost all the autistic savants are male.

Host Allan_Snyder says: I don't know. No-one knows, although there have been two extraordinary female savants; Nadia in England, and Jessica in Boston, of whom much has been written.

Host Stella_9msn says: AKemp says: Professor Snyder, has this trans-cranial magnetic stimulation technique been used in healthy adult participants before, and could this result in long-term change in brain function?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Obviously no researcher would subject a participant to something if it were even minutely suspected of being deleterious to your health. Although I think it's a very fair question to ask and like anything, if it were done in excess over decades, I presume it would have to be examined in the light of such experiments. I think you will be happy to know that the experimenters themselves take part in the experiments.

Host Stella_9msn says: Russell says: Professor, when a person counts 145 windows, or a few hundred straws on the floor, do you think they're actually counting them in way we aren't able to, or do they just see them the way we see three apples – without really thinking about how many there are?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I don't remember seeing that in the film, but I remember Dustin Hoffman doing it in the original Rainman. It's one of the most astonishing of Oliver Sacks' observations. I think they're not counting, I do think it is instantaneous and we argue in our Royal Society paper that the brain partitions. Check out our website if you wish: www.centreforthemind.com.

Host Stella_9msn says: SteveH says: Professor, why can't we turn on the savant part of the brain without turning off another part? Could it be that the body doesn't generate enough energy to "power" both at once? Did your experiments with your own brain work?

Host Allan_Snyder says: We didn't evolve to be able to understand and to read our non-conscious machinery. We evolve to give a rapid decision without knowing, or caring, how that decision is usually arrived at, eg like why does a ball appear round, and not like a circle, the way we usually draw it? So it's a deliberate block, in my opinion.

Host Stella_9msn says: Kaleidoscope says: I seem to have a rare ability to separate tones of colours ... to the extreme other of colour blindness. I am not autistic but have major problems with headaches in the back area. Would I be of any help to your research?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Yeah, that's interesting. Communicate with us. Check out our website: www.centreforthemind.com.

Host Stella_9msn says: doctormac says: Dear professor, I am a psychiatrist and I have a patient with dissociative identity disorder who regresses at times to earlier stages of her life. In one of these regressed states she exhibits remarkable artistic, verbal and memory abilities which she can't reproduce when she is fully reintegrated as an adult. Do you have any comments?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I think this is fascinating. Let's talk about this in-depth later. Please check out our website: www.centreforthemind.com. Maybe we can do something together on this.

Host Stella_9msn says: Elizabeth says: My son almost died of bacterial meningitis. He told us that before he lost consciousness he remembered doing very complicated maths in his head. Could this be useful to your theory?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Yes, this is not unique. It has been known to bring on savantism, and in my article entitled 'The Genius Within' in the Australian, I brought out that example. It's on our website:www.centreforthemind.com. Nonetheless, I would like any more details on the mathematics or anything else related to that, because while I say it's not unique there are only a few recorded cases in history that I know of. Please contact me regarding this.

Host Stella_9msn says: proteus says: Professor Snyder, is it possible to tap into these abilities without the use of the machines mentioned before ... but by switching off from certain activities like conscious speech or even maybe blindfolding oneself for extended periods of time to shut off all visual stimulus?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Yes, others have mentioned this, even meditating, using ways to circumvent the normal conscious flow. But not much has been done in scientifically controlled experiments. This is one of our main projects.

Host Stella_9msn says: Chris says: Professor, in the television program it was suggested that we all receive enormous amounts of information, which is then filtered dramatically. However, these people are missing the filtering stage of processing, and retain all the information they receive. Is it possible that there is some blurring of their conscious and unconscious states, and how does your research relate to our current understanding of consciousness?

Host Stella_9msn says: We will have to pause our interview here. Dr Snyder is getting ready

to go to the airport and will be able to

continue our chat in five minutes. Please be

patient ...

Host Allan_Snyder says: What I believe is that savants are like infants in they haven't yet formed concepts, so they see the world the way it is – with little meaning. So the point is they're not filtering it, rather they fail to put it into neat packages called concepts. If we lack the ability to conceptualise, then we would be more savant-like. Or if we block the meaning of what we see or sense, then we do see things the way they are .... devoid of meaning.

Host Stella_9msn says: Rossco says: Professor, do you believe there are varying degrees of savantism in the minds of people who are not autistic?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I don't know if savantism is all or nothing, but it really would appear as though it might be. Remember, I only really use the term savant for someone under the age of 10 or even five because as they get older, their conceptual brain does seem to develop and then you get a peculiar mix of savant skills married to more normal conceptual skills.

Host Stella_9msn says: amaraJolly says: Professor, what do you expect the side effects to be of your experiment? How do you control variables and not permanently alter abilities and personalities of yourself and your colleagues?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I don't wish to change my charming personality .... ha, ha ... any more than I'm sure you do! All evidence points to this being a safe procedure, whereas, for example, we don't feel the same confidence about mobile telephones – even though they may ultimately prove to be safe. It's always a serious concern. I don't mean to belittle a very valid area for consideration but this tool is used throughout the world for other purposes than this rather unique one we're suggesting here.

Host Stella_9msn says: del says: Dr S, could it be argued that a similar phenomenon is occurring in an individual with superior social skills and poor reasoning? Why is there no documentation of this? I understand social skills are difficult to quantify but surely a reversal of autistic savant is possible?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Yeah, I think there are cases of this particular type of syndrome ... labelled with a person's name, which I cannot remember right now, and I don't wish to try to guess, and you probably know anyway... There is certainly the inverse of this savant-type behavior, where people have extraordinary verbal abilities and are hyper-energetic, but I can't remember it. I'll have to think about this one. It's a good question ... I'm certain this does exist. Someone who had extraordinary social and political skills, and poor reasoning as you say, would be a very interesting individual, and counterintuitive to what I would suspect. So that would be a very interesting brain damage indeed ... but one that's possible.

Host Stella_9msn says: ann says: Professor, if the damaged area could be restored would the gifts go? And if so, over what period of time?

Host Allan_Snyder says: Well, sure, the damaged areas, if they could be restored, the savant skill would go and in a sense this is what happened with several savants. In fact the best one, Nadia, drew extraordinarily well at three and four but lost that ability when she began to speak .... when she began to conceptualise, in other words. People who have suffered brain damage by a bang on their head ... and become savants are yet to be prepared, of course. But then again there's the experiment that the Flinders group did – switching their skills on and off by magnetic pulses.

Host Stella_9msn says: Susan_Cantrell says: Do you think that the methods used by, say, Einstein, ie staring at clouds, could be a natural way of affecting the left temporal lobe?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I would be very surprised if Einstein wasn't totally conceptual, so looking at clouds would be his way of fantasising and dreaming, wouldn't you think? Einstein epitomises, to me, the conceptual approach. I have read people with Asperger's disease writing about themselves ... and comparing themselves to Einstein and others, eg Temple Grandin, in her book, but I don't believe it.

Host Stella_9msn says: Our apologies to the Sunday viewers who submitted great questions that weren't asked. We are running out of time, and here is our last question ...

Host Stella_9msn says: TamaraJolly says: Professor, what is your theory on the differences between autism, high-functioning autism, and Asperger's syndrome in relation to the differences in damage to areas in the brain?

Host Allan_Snyder says: I don't have a theory on that and the evidence of brain scanning. It with no conclusive resolution of this important question. And it's a blurry line between Asperger's syndrome and high-functioning autism, one which seems to have more to do with semantics than medical distinction. Also, and this is very important, autism rarely presents as an isolated brain damage, which could well explain why there are not more autistic savants and why it is that not all savants have mathematics, art and music as their skill. It's intriguing, and this is why the method of magnetic pulses may answer questions such as this, because we can ultimately target a restricted area of the brain in a controlled manner, which is why I find these sorts of experiments so profoundly important. Brain damage, especially developmental brain damage, is quite often diffusive. We're working on it, but thank you.

Host Stella_9msn says: Thank you for answering our questions, Professor Snyder. This has been a most informative and interesting interview. We hope to hear back from you soon about your research into autism, either from your Web page at www.centreforthemind.com, or in the media.

Host Allan_Snyder says: I really warmly thank everybody for allowing me this opportunity to have your insights – many of which often transcend the insights of so-called experts. Too bad we couldn't all be sitting around a big round table discussing this informally – wouldn't that be the ultimate chat? But until then, thanks so much again, and goodbye.

Host Stella_9msn says: This concludes our Sunday Online live chat with Professor Allan Snyder, May 6 2001.

If you would like further information on the Centre of the Mind, a joint venture of the Australian National University and the University of Sydney, you can log on to their website at: http://www.centreforthemind.com

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